Maybe we’re watching/reading different series, but I don’t see many of these massive mistakes (let alone the name changing one) that you’re talking about – in fact, many times I’ve found that official DVDs (and manga done by companies such as Del Rey) have better translations. Some companies do have sticks up their asses (Viz for example), but I don’t see these mistakes nowadays outside them. Besides, DVD quality video is infinitely better than anything a TV raw will give you (unless it’s HD and h.264) – I hate it when you get fuzzy TV raws (especially in dark scenes where the raws can’t keep up at all). My only complaint is the removal of honorifics in series, but you can usually listen to it and know them anyway.

And regarding scanlators, I still have crappy memories of them leaving out panels in translations because ‘they’re too hard’, and then making things confusing for us readers. Companies also charge high prices (though I do agree that they might be a little over the top where you are) because they’re selling for a niche market and have a large number of overheads.

It’s the attitude that fansubs are better, and free, that causes the problems that companies talk about. You’re deluding yourself if you don’t think anime downloading doesn’t have an effect on sales – it’s a niche market with a very internet-savvy target market. Whilst there are a number of people such as yourself and myself that buy the DVDs when they come out, there are a huge number of others that don’t. Geneon probably collapsed as a result of poor choice of series (eg F/sn, a series widely watched but regarded as rather sub-par) and downloads.

Urgh, I’ve ranted too much. And on somebody else’s blog, too.

Where did i say that they dont have an effect? I didn’t say that. What i said was:

‘I’m not naive enough to say it doesn’t have an effect, but it’s nuts to say they’re the cause of Geneon closing shop in the USA.’

Prince of Tennis has had over 3/4 of the episodes scripts rewritten, Saiunkoku Monogatari, which is licensed by Geneon, they changed the name of Shuurei from Kou Shuurei to Shurei Hong. Despite the fact it’s clearly stated she’s Kou Shuurei. The reason given is insane, because they did it for 1 character alone. Then there’s the over pricing and bad translation.

The newer manga companies are indeed better, i said that aswell, it’s clear you didnt read my post properly. New companies such as Del Rey and Yen do try and keep as close to the original as possible.

Viz, ADV, Tokyopop and others don’t Tokyopop arent as bad as the others, but they’re still quite bad.

All scanlators started out rough, no one starts as a master at it. I’ve seen scans that are terrible, and watched as the group improved over time. The same goes for fansubs, sure TVRaws can be quite bad, but over time as the japanese dvd raws become available they release new versions of the series.

I am a huge fan of Saiunkoku Monogatari, but i refuse to buy the DVD’s because i don’t want to see a great show butchered. Ask yourself, if your watching a show and a character says Kou Shuurei, but the sub you see says Shurei Hong, what would you think?

Look at the ADV version Aqua and Aria, and compare it with Tokyopop’s new version. Would you pay $30 for vol1 of a series you know has been mistranslated? Stunts like this are more likely to cause a business to fail.

Fansubs ARE better than DVD’s when they’re done right. There are groups out there that buy the japanese DVD’s (which are superior to the US/UK releases anyway) and encode them in h264, which gives them a better picture than i get on my bought DVD’s.

F/sn was an awesome series, but Geneon totaly misshandled it, as usual. It wasn’t the first and it wouldn’t be the last. Companies like them try to make their products apppeal to as large an audiance as possible by doing rewrites.

Look at Prince of Tennis, vol of that series is $36, whould you pay it knowing that the script has be rewritten and what they say isnt what they’re supposed to be saying?

I’m not saying that scanlations/fansubs don’t have an impact, because they do and always will. But the best way for companies to counter that is to improve their product to the level where it competes in quality with fansubs, and is priced fairly.

Most people i know within the anime community would rather have the DVD’s, but they want quality products and not have to take a mortgage out just to buy a series.

Geneon probably collapsed ’cause people got sick of their sub par over priced releases and decided to go elsewhere.

Manga wise, as i say it’s improving. The quality from smaller companies such as Del Rey and Yen beats that of bigger companies such as ADV and Tokyopop. If the big companies learnt from the smaller ones their sales would increase.

Both mediums need to learn to embrace the internet properly aswell, rather than treating it like a 10day old road kill.

The name change in Saiunkoku Monogatari wasn’t done on a whim by Geneon; it was requested by NHK/the other Japanese rightsholders. It was done because there is another character with the surname of Kou that is written with a different kanji (“yellow” instead of “red”) and is not related to Shuurei. A now-former representative of Geneon confirmed this at AnimeOnDVD’s forums a while back.

Like RexRox I’ve also seen some pretty doinky fansubs and scanlations out there. I’ve seen scanlations done from the Chinese translation where the names are still written in the Chinese pronunciation because the translator didn’t have a copy of the Japanese original on hand or couldn’t google the original names – I suppose this is understandable, but it feels jarring. (I don’t think it’s a good idea to translate from another translation, anyway.) Likewise I’ve seen scanlations and fansubs where the translation is extremely stilted and doesn’t feel natural at all, and/or they actually translate some sentences wrong (in one fansub of Clannad I spotted some bad translations of sentences, and in the infamous scanlation of Loveless a lot of the dialogue was mistranslated).

Yes, there are some official anime releases that are translated badly and/or aren’t as good as they should be. However I think that in general, most official releases’ translations aren’t too bad.

I do agree that the anime industry in particular should embrace the Internet better and put up some of their catalog on a streaming site paid for by ads (not doinky ads, but maybe ads placed in between eyecatches or something). Some companies have taken some steps into doing this but it’s not as developed as it should.

I also think that long series, particularly niche ones, should be released as boxsets only.

@Tiamat: Whoops, I missed your opening line. Sorry. Regardless, you give a few examples that you use to vilify the whole thing. Do you watch Bandai releases? They’re good, solid releases. ADV’s gotten a fair bit better, as has Viz (when you ignore their localisation efforts). You use the argument of scanlators and fansubbers getting better over time, yet refuse to allow companies the same argument. Furthermore, you seem to say that F/sn was rewritten, which it certainly wasn’t. Companies rarely do rewrites and major edits nowadays because the fans hate them for it (see 4Kids).

I do know that some fansubs are excellent – I watch those groups when possible, yet I also know that many shows don’t get that treatment and that official releases are better than a number of groups (or at least as good). And finally, regarding groups rereleasing DVD encodes – you can’t receive higher quality video than the source, so saying that re-encoding the DVD in h.264 makes it look better is kind of ridiculous (though I do approve of it when companies don’t license the series). Oh, and you never addressed my point regarding prices (which look to be more of a problem with local distributors, seeing how Australian prices caren’t as bad as the UK).

I do see the point your trying to make (and I suppose I do agree somewhat), but I feel saying that the industry is currently broken is a bit much.

@doinkies: Definitely agree on the Internet part – it’s a niche market where most people use the Internet alot, so they’re being idiots not to take advantage of it. And I’m sure we all wish that they did release long series as boxsets, but that would reduce profits.

@RexRox: Yes i watch Bandai, and while they arent bad, they’re on the same level as ADV and the rest.

One of the better companies is FUNimation, and thats not saying alot.

Companies AREN’T learning, if they were they’d be listening to the fans. How long has it taken the manga companies to realise that listening to the fans is the best way to improving proffits?

It’s only been in the last 5 years or so that they’ve started to improve, shame the anime side of things don’t learn the same lesson.

Also please read ALL of my post. I didn’t ay F/sn had been rewritten i said:

‘F/sn was an awesome series, but Geneon totaly misshandled it, as usual. It wasn’t the first and it wouldn’t be the last.’

Where in there does it say it was rewritten? I sure can’t see it. The only one i said had been rewrriten (and confirmed by myself) was PoT. I know of other shows that have had partial rewrites, kyou kara maou for example. So saying rewrites are rare isn’t quite true. Sure rewrites on PoT scale are rare, but more and more rewrites happen on a scene by scene basis.

Also, where did i say reencoding the DVD’s makes it look better? Again, what i said was:

‘There are groups out there that buy the japanese DVD’s (which are superior to the US/UK releases anyway) and encode them in h264, which gives them a better picture than i get on my bought DVD’s.’

This is a common fact. Japanese encoded discs are of a higher quality than the domestic releases. It’s all down to how it’s encoded onto the DVD’s. I won’t pretend i know the in’s and out’s of it, cause frankly i don’t (and i don’t really care lol). What is a fact is that both picture and sound quality is usually (there have been some exceptions) better on the Japanese releases.

Encoding from a japanese DVD to h264 usually does give a better picture than what i get on my bought DVD’s.

As for overcharging, there’s no excuse for it period. Dosen’t matter whether it’s a niche market or not. That’s like saying it’s fair to charge five times the amount something ius worth if there’s only five buyers. Don’t know about the states. but in the UK that’s been illegal for donkey’s years.

Yes the anime community is comparitivly smnall when you consider it against other DVD markets. However it’s partially DOWN to the over charging. Which would you pay, upwards of $200+ for a DVD series, or get the fansubs?

Most of their ‘high costs’ could be cut just by using that old thing called common sense. As forthe pricing in the UK, that’s set by parent company. Let’s say MVM becomes a distributer for an ADV title, ADV slls them the license ant an insane fee, MVM in turn have to bump up the price even further to make a profit.

The anime industry isnt so much as ‘broke’ as in it’s run by a bunch of crooks out to bleed the fans for as much as they can. And i haven’t even touched on the dub side of things >.<

Also, your wrong about saying that releasing in Boxsets would decrease profits, probably the opposite. I’d say almost all of the UK based fans i know of do not buy ‘official’ releases anymore. Why should we spend almost £300 to buy a 24/26 episode series when we can get it imported for £29.99?

which would you go, £300 or £29.99. Dosen’t really take a genius to work it out does it?

Equally most of us would be more than happy to pay upwards of £50 for a boxset.

Sure, on a sale by sale basis profits would be less, but if you look at the whole profits, they’d be up. Since more people would swap back to official releases over imports.

And saying that imported ones aren’t as good as the official releases dosent hald water. Out of curiosity i tested this, Ordered the 12 Kingdoms boxsets from the states ($45 each), the official collectors editions, and looked at the video and audio quality of them compared to my imported one that i paid £29.99. On my normal TV and DVD (as in no HD or any of that gumph, just a plain old TV and DVD player) there was no noticable difference in audio or video. What was the difference? My imported one didn’t have all the extras the american imports have, which are unimportant to me anyway. That was it.

Boxsets are the way to go BECAUSE it’s a niche market. Companies do seem to have learnt this, Emma is being released in season Boxsets only, which is a good start.

@doinkies: Sorry but i don’t buy that. I trust AoD as much as i trust ANN, which is about as far as i could though wet paper bag in a huricane. They’ve been proven to have bad information on to many occassions. Also the claim that the japanese right holders wanted the change hasn’t been confirmed, and they’ve been asked about it several times.

I’m more inclined to believe that it was Geneon doing it off their own back. Which wouldn’t be the first time they’ve done it.

I’ve been a anime fan now for a long time, and i’ve seen it grow from a cult classic type of market, with fairly priced vids and then DVD’s, to the over priced blood sucking thing it’s become.

I buy DVD’s and watch anime on TV because I want to watch the official, authorized version that doesn’t steal in any way from the original creators or the companies who license them [and fund their productions]

That, and I don’t want to watch anime with KakashiSexy555 @ hotmail.com’s name in the credits in Glittler Font.

At least domestic distributors translate the actual credits.

Also, on using the japanese DVD’s thing—- most of these people are taking them off television, and just editing out commercials. And importing DVD’s from Japan and the US are very different things then downloading fansubs- there’s a difference between demanding value, and stealing….

*edited to remove double posting, and dodgy email address. TD*

Andre, it’s not a question of stealling, it’s a question of quality. Better quality = more profits. Thats common knowledge.

Also it’s clear your understanding of Japanese DVD’s is less than that of your knowledge of fansubs >.<

Not every dvd you buy from japan is bootleg. Sure if you buy it from ebay there’s a high chance it is, but there are proper sources to buy dvd’s from.

Also please don’t turn this into a fansub = stealing thing, because you wont convinc anyone of it, especially me. I’ve heard all of the arguments and they hold as much water as a sieve.

When you spend as much on anime and manga as i do, then you can get on a high horse and tell me im stealing by watching fansubs. (And for the record, last year i spent just under £5000 on anime, manga, magazines and other bits and bobs. At the current exchange rate thats $9,860.03.) So, when you spend that much you can come and tell me i’m stealing cause i watch fansubs. Okay. In the mean time please keep it to yourself.

I didn’t say that every DVD you buy from Japan is a bootleg. My reference was to you pointing out how expensive British DVD’s are- doing something like importing Japanese or R1 dvd’s isn’t as harmful to the industry as fansubs.

I’ve heard all the arguments about how fansubs aren’t stealing, and they hold even less in seive- it all boils down to someone wanting something for free because they deserve it for some magical reason, and are too impatient to bother waiting.

I spend a fair amount on anime myself, and I’m sorry if I caused offense, but I’ve grown tired of “Gee, aren’t fansubs great?” stuff, because usually it comes from people who don’t buy any anime [and sometimes don't even buy something as cheap and common as manga], some of whom often do nothing but brag about how much they’ve stolen. I’m not saying you’re one of those people, but those people do exist, and the popularizing of this behaviour is one of the things affecting the industry. Companies are attempting to create more simulataneous releases and lower dvd prices [Media Blasters is excelling at both of these things as an example], but fans have to do their part too.

I think it’s irresponsible of any fan to look at fansubs and ignore the fact that they do have some negative consequences alongside whatever merits they had [and those merits are increasingly worthless in a dwindling market that's causing a decrease in production, and an increase in fandom without beniffitting the artists who make anime].

And again, gah, the Glitter Font!
Think of the Glitter Font!!!!
Seriously, I appreciate that most R1 companies take the time to translate credits in full, and don’t plaster their pseudo-names in giant flourescent coloured font that jingles across the screen.

Also, there’s an economy to think of. With less people buying DVD’s [which is where most animation companies make their profits], companies have to lower production standards/costs to avoid price increases [see recent layoffs] , or they have to increase the price per dvd [I think this is part of why dvd prices are so high in Japan- there's a reason an OVA costs 60-100 bucks per volume]. Companies are trying to offer better prices, quicker releases, more episodes per dvd [MB's Simoun release is quite nice], but fans have to do their part too. And looking at the effects that fansubs have on that economy is part of it.

*Please don’t keep double posting, it’s a pain to have to edit. TD*

‘I didn’t say that every DVD you buy from Japan is a bootleg. My reference was to you pointing out how expensive British DVD’s are- doing something like importing Japanese or R1 dvd’s isn’t as harmful to the industry as fansubs.’

It’s clear then you know nothing about importing anime.

Fansubing isnt stealing, it’s copyright infringement. There is a difference. The former is a criminal offence, the latter a civil (though in some countires its heading for criminal aswell).

As for the number of moochers v number of genuine fans, i think you’d be surprised at just how few the moochers are. I’ve attended conventions up and down the country, and the mood is pretty much the same. Fans WANT to buy the suff, but the companies overcharge and under distribute. The companies themselves are a large part of moochers increasing. The common thought is usually, ‘Why should i spend my cash on them when they don’t listen’.

The UK particularly is getting fed up with being trated like second class fans. THATS the major cause of moochers in the UK. And yes, the amount of anime i buy has gone down drasticaly to what it used to be. Why should i give the likes of ADV and Media Blasters my cash when they treat us like an after thought.

The system has to work both ways, as it is it’s a one way street.. Us to them.

Yes fansibs are great, i can have them on my PSP or iPop and take them anywhere. Oh, and before you say you can do that with the official releases, no you can’t. The minute you do that your breaking copyright, so you’d be stealling (by your definition at least)

If you don’t like the kareoke then don’t watch it. I usually only watch the OP/ED once then skip it pretty much every time after. Unless it’s one i like.

As for ‘attempting to create more simulataneous releases and lower dvd prices’, who are you trying to kid. Since the 80′s when anime began to take off the american companies have treated the european market as an afterthought. Yes we do have a few joint releases, but no where near the number it should be. I’m not saying that they have to be released at EXACTLY the same time. What i’m saying is that we shouldn’t have to wait 3-5 years AFTER the american release for a UK release.

Several shows that have been finished in the US for over 2 years still arent even fully released here.

Fans have been doing their part for decades, and they’re getting fed up of doing their part for little return. It works both ways!! And if you think Simoun release was nice… *shudders*

If the companies want fans to buy more they need to increase the quality of the translations, increase the number of episodes on the release, or better yet just release boxsets. If you think fansubs are the bane of the economy i think you need to have a reality check.

Fansubs do have a small effect (didn’t i say this already *looks* yup i did), however this could easily be mitigated by simply improving the quality and lowering the price to a more realistic price.

For example, i recently boughta DVD boxset, has over 40DVD’s in it and cost me £129. Thats a fair price.

A DVD movie costs between £8-£19 depending on where you buy it. Again a fair price.

Anime DVD’s have a price of £24-£30. I’d hardly call that a fair price.

I go to my anime supplier, tell him which shows i want three days later i have them. 12/13 episode shows cost me £16-£19 for the ENTIRE series, 24/26 episode shows cost £18-24.99. And i just bought all 70 odd episodes of kyou kara. Any idea how much it cost? £34

Those are fair prices. Last year i spent just under £2000 with that guy, this year i’ll probably buy from him again. How many ‘official’ dvd’s did i buy? None. How many will i buy this year? None.

It’s nothing to do with the economy, it’s all about bleeding as much money out fans and licensing as possible. It always has been and most likely always will be.

Comparing a dvd that’ll sell 500 copies to ones that sell millions isn’t fair. I’m sorry if the situation in Britain isn’t to your liking, but I take a realistic approach to this…. anime is a niche market.

As for licenses [which sound to be rolling back down to more logical levels], well, the price might be high, but companies have to keep new productions funded one way or another. I think the decrease of productions for TV in Japan and the parallell decrease in licensing here speaks a lot about how important international licensing is. I imagine there are some companies who’re overdoing things, but for the most part, it looks like most are very carefully keeping things afloat [or, not keeping things afloat, which explains all the doom and gloom]

Let’s look at Graphic Novels. Let’s say you’re an independent cartoonist. Cut out all costs involved in production [like say, paying artists, paying translators, paying inkers, colourists, editors etc]. If it costs you 3000 bucks to print 1000 copies of FantastiBookA, and you want to break even, and you expect orders from distributors for 500 copies during the first year *at best*….. so, you’re going to have to charge 6 bucks to the distributor to break even. Once that gets to retail, and retailers and distributors get their cut, that’s a 12 buck graphic novel or more…. [as for direct-to-consumer via the internet, it does cut away some worries, but with stuff like shipping costs, and a lower range of distribution that limits it only to hardcore fans, you'll have to keep prices up to a certain degree either way]. If fans aren’t buying, well vol.2 won’t be coming, unless you want to go into massive debt while trying to appease a very small fanbase no matter how vocal it is [like Geneon did].

Given that many Anime DVD’s sell discs in the mid-thousands or even in the hundreds, they’re in boat that’s not too different from outs. I suspect things like Bandai Visual’s high quality [but insanely priced DVD's]

BTW– Bragging about getting bootlegged DVD’s from some dude doesn’t help your argument.

[and if you're going to counter with webcomics - there's NO money in webcomics. Trust me on that. There's a handful of people who do, but most artists do it out of nothing but love, and an attempt to build and audience/gain experience. Trying something like Animation in this style is even more perilous...... the problem with selling online content is that people are too educated that Online=Free. It's less a viable business as just another advertising outlet- which is hard for anime companies to even use given how rarely fansub sites point out licenses, official sites and releases, and often ignore stuff like official attempts at providing online content...... Even something as nice as ADV's new Streaming site has to deal with the fact that people are already all over NarutoFan, which is another shady aspect of fansubbing- the Profiteers.]

Andre, it’s become clear you know little about the anime and manga industry, and even less about how it is in the UK.

Why not come back when you know a bit more about both, okay.

Of, i’d love to know where i was:

‘BTW– Bragging about getting bootlegged DVD’s from some dude doesn’t help your argument.’

Not only do you not understand the market, but you also don’t read what people are saying. Not very bright there arer we. In future READ what people are saying BEFORE you make a post please.

I have closed the comments due to Andre, what i had hopped for was a constructive debate. Much like what i was getting from Rex and Doinkies who hold different views to me. Saddly Andre has this habbit of spaming the comments (posting 2 or 3 times in succession when 1 is only needed) and also of not reading the the post or comments in full, just jumping to conclusions.

Since this has now become tiresome, i’ve closed the comments on this post. Only the third time in 5 years of blogging

If you hold a different view to mine, then by all means state it, debate with me and learn. Only way we learn is by talking to each other folks. However you come into my house you will play nice, if you don’t i’ll spank you

If i stop you from commenting, and you think i’m being unfair, drop me a line through the contact me page and give me your reasons. I’m only human, and respond as a human. If it’s a genuine mistake i’ll unblock you, all it needs is a bit of that old thing called communication.

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